So, perhaps Paul is assuming that we need to put resources on the brothers and sisters that are really asking for help. http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/church-england-head-colluded-sex-abuse-48202873. I just see it as our obligation as Christians to do these things: get help and services for people, point them in the right direction. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. New TWW post. I didnt consider Barbaras post to be nasty to you. Leave him alone! Jr's church in Virginia, Saint Peter Presbyterian Church. A probation department typically makes a written recommendation to the judge about the course of treatment, that includes professional treatment. I havent read all the comments, so forgive me if I am off topic by this point. At least, from the description. As flawed and controlling and crazy-making as that church might have been, at least most of the people there didnt strike me as malicious. In time, this changes for the better. God have mercy. I have and it can be a beautiful thing. Yes, it would be nice to if Lisa would clarify what she knows about the kind of counseling that R.C. Like his son he doesnt practice what he preaches. is playing right into his hands and giving him exactly what he wants. She just soaked up the love in the very back and left each time. I said, Sproul Jr. has suffered tragedies, yes. Leave him alone! But! I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. He was a success story. Velour, you are assuming Barbara is saying that based on his alcoholism. Just that God, even when I was doubting him the most, was faithful.). But to take that info and post it here? At some deep emotional level if I hear self medicating one more time used to minimize reasons, effects or societal responsibilities of alcohol abuseArrrgghh. Now youre just provoking more? My point was that RC Jr. appears to be / have been a controlling cult leader, which is similar to what your ex-pastor sounds like from what I remember reading. I was laughing at the double-entendre of the typo. In the 12-point plans that are out there, an alcoholic would do well to pick Jesus as his higher power. You would think a preacher would have that figured out. The churches we worked with said they could not handle the work we did. Personally, I choose to abstain, and I wish everyone wouldn't complicate their lives with it at all. Perhaps you need some help as a family member of people who were alcoholics, so that you can find some people to talk to? If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. was hurt, and has seen others hurt (including whole families and children), by R.C. 5 comes to mind. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? I, too, have been very disappointed in this thread. Im not totally on Deborahs side in being so defensive of Sproul, but in this particular matter, the other woman she was responding to (Christiane?) I say this in support of Velour without being critical to either one of you who may have responded from your own pain. Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? After a total of 35 years I got entirely out of clinical and went into what the licensure people call administrative which is a wastebasket term for non-clinical and did that for 15 years. That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. Can you find out for us if this was a New Calvinist takeover thing? I was stopped, he was doing 55 in a 35. Its deeply odd for a grown man to mock anyone who doesnt drink. It was obvious that the other poster had replied out of their own painful experience. A passionate photographer, birder, genealogist, historian and occasional poet, John was 85. While it is your prerogative since it is your blog, there are other legitimate treatment methods that do incorporate the word and there is nothing wrong with it. Quoting or summarizing her words is fine, but to point blank say she is against treatment for alcoholics is wrong when she did not say that. Yes, you are correct I meant his own as in a new group unaffiliated with his fathers. Theres a show about morbidly obese people on cable TV, and some of them over eat to medicate pain left over from childhood. If she were an unbeliever it wouldnt matter. Ive seen the terrible impacts of alcohol abuse in my family, beginning with just a beer at the picnic to full-fledged alcoholism with many consequences. The ironic thing, Velour, is that in my experience most recovering alkies, both in AA and CR, would encourage Lisa to show RC Jr tough love. Its a term that comes up often in CR meetings. He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. His fowl testimony presumes a repeat performance. I look at it as a psychiatric disorder which becomes an addiction that causes a number of physiological diseases. It has its uses because social pressure can be brought to bear from time to time, and you do know whether to let your kids go play over at so and sos house (not if Daddy is a drunk, for instance and keeping with this conversation) and it does get out who (married) was seen with whom (not a spouse) and what sweet young thing got into the car with whom after school after being forbidden to do that. It just makes me sad all over again. Are you not reading my comments to you? which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. Christiane wrote: Would a clergy-person uses their position to I dont think he should. Would you please, so as not to cause me to stumble, stop suggesting that it is wrong to drink alcohol in moderation, or that drinking alcohol in moderation somehow is a failure to love my brothers? Thank you. Im glad you got out of your situation, too, and have learned much from reading your comments and resources. That he is not qualified to serve as a pastor given his abusive history of church members, former church members, and other disqualifying behaviors; Assuming there is a correlation only gives Sproul the perfect excuse he needs to justify his drinking, and I can guarantee you its also the excuse he used with his drunk driving attorney who then used it on the Prosecutor and Judge: My client lost his wife to cancer in 2011 and his daughter in 2012. The woman who hit us was found guilty of manslaughter and served time in prison. I also said that down in the road, in his recovery (if hes agreeable to getting clean and sober), he needs to make amends to people individually that he harmed, to families, and to entire churches (including publicly up front) with the help of a sponsor(sober mentor) directing him in how this process should be carried out. Those are very informative. But interventions and treatment does work. I really loved my father very much and he gave more for his family in deeper ways than most of the superhero folks that command such respect in the franchises from what I have observed. 13 God judges those outside. Ones dad ritually abused her as a baby, and another one doesnt even know his dad. How would permitting Sproul Jr. to remain a pastor, or in regular attendance at any church, treat his alcoholism, or treat or correct his tendency to visit cheating sites, or to bully other people? Im fortunate in that my Dad did get sober via AA. He instead cut them, crossing into the opposite lane right on the extreme point of blind curves. And some people have been at this for years, apparently, and have developed precision skills in defense of their agenda. Sitting in a church, and attending weekly, didnt help heal me of anxiety, depression, or help me deal with grief after a death in the family. In reading through the Spinderella blog, I read a number ofcomments which accused SproulJr. of telling people in his former church to stop taking medications for psychiatric disorders. That wouldnt be me. (which I dont think they should be doing, such as, telling depressed persons to cope with depression by forgoing medication and read the Bible and trust in Jesus) I am sorry to complain, thankyou for sharing about your Dad, Brian. and I had a problem with the Bible, as a silencing technique. If somebody asks themselves where the line is then the line may be something they have already crossed in their own mind, or else why would they even ask. I did a poor job of hearing you through all your pain, a pain which is very genuine and proper considering all the terrible things youve likely been through. Im convinced thats exactly what Mr. and Mrs. (Vesta) Sproul have done to their Precious. I dont say it out of ignorance or just speculation. More than that, how do you know what their drinking habits are? Wasnt it radiology or something like that? My trying to save him from the pain of his choices only made things worse. I believe you missed the intent of Dees post. Maybe, in other words, theyre treating the paid guy in the pulpit exactly the same as theyd treat the least of Jesus siblings. So I am left with confusion. Note, that process was taught by Christ Jesus for ANY believer. So here it is. The point being that even relatively mild hypoglycaemia is known to impair brain function; if I were involved in an accident whilst hypoglycaemic, I would be considered in law to be driving under the influence of medication. The court has set a trial date of June 6, 2017. Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. Heres a quote from at least as far back as 2005. That is where God met me and my family member. Velour wrote: We don't know the extent to which RC2 family have tried to get help for him, but RC1 is a faithful brother of all of us in Christ. I am so glad that Anne Lamott got help thats wonderful! After awhile, even when things settle down, one can still feel the same sort of anxiety. Im not incorrect. Velour said: Share Background Report Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida Phone: View phone number Age: 84 Gender: Female (Stay Sweet), Im convinced thats exactly what Mr. and Mrs. (Vesta) Sproul have done to their Precious., Remember what happened to Gollum and his PRECIOUSSSSSSSSSSSS, Velour wrote: It is what the Bible calls for. Here bones had been severely broken, and I will never forget seeing her elbow and knee in traction. I lost a number of friends in high school who didnt. I had to figure it out myself later in life. Julie Anne reminded me about the path RC-Jr took, after MY post previously. Commercials always depict drinkers as so happy, having fun, etc. . Perhaps you missed Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G. My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. Even if his church wanted to help him get clean and sober and go into treatment, he very likely has the people under him (the ones who stay) brainwashed enough that they believe that a) he can do no wrong, and b) if he is said to have done something wrong, it is actually persecution and not that he has done anything wrong, because (see point a). Had therapy and continues to do so. And I know how the victims of such unjust expulsions often feel, because we hear from them often at A Cry For Justice. And as far as dark chocolate goes, I didnt have any with my wine (oops, gave it away), but I did have 1/4 of my Trader Joes dark chocolate and almond bar that I am savoring. I very concerned that in this day and age with all of the resources available to help guide the church with handling serious problems including substance abuse that the only response that Barbara had was to kick Sproul out of the church. Drinking and driving is SO DANGEROUS! R.C. As I understand it RC Sproul Jr. is a Calvinist just like his father and thus hold to TULIP., According to the P in TULIP they believe in the perseverance of the saints. This basically states that if one is a true believer or as they put it selected by God for salvation or in their term unconditional election this person will not backslide etc. So I was only saying what the Bible says. https://cryingoutforjustice.com/are-abuse-victims-codependent/, We have never banned a person from our blog for using the word codependent. ALBERT SPROUL OBITUARY SPROUL ALBERT J. SPROUL, age 81 of Willowick. I concluded RC got off because he is a preachers son. I summarized the issues with R.C. Would you PLEASE STOP! Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! More than likely RC Sproul Jr is a functional alcoholic, if not a high-functioning alcoholic. Hes held down a successful career (or at least hes made a lot of money), been a reasonably successful father, has been held in high esteem by many people, etc. There are, perhaps, one or two differences between Type 1 diabetes and alcoholism. Categories: Presbyterian Church in the United States of America Ministers | Altamonte Springs, Florida | Sanford, Florida | Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania | Biblical Scholars | Teachers | Authors | Broadcasters | Editors | Notables, WIKITREE HOME | ABOUT | G2G FORUM | HELP | SEARCH. I found learning about that topic very helpful to me my mother was raised in a home filled with alcoholism and domestic violence). The point to this story is that alcohol, for some people, is almost invariably destructive and those that love them have a limited ability to help them. I know that if I told my patient/client they could never change and they might as well give up now and just die, it would not only go against my professional code of ethics, but the passion of my training assisting others to get well. You chose to believe your wrong assumption about Barbara and me. Yep. Ditto for medications, which may need to be changed to find the right one. Velour wrote: So someone asked how can sitting in the pews help a recovering alcoholic. I can totally understand RCSproul wanting to protect his son, What I dont understand is his lack of faith in Gid dealing with his son. If one has not read the Adult children of alcoholic books, dont consider yourself educated on this matter. Maybe his/her story lies hidden in those barbs, and they are the only way this person can express themselves at this time? My FIL quit drinking, stayed sober 30 years. Web site of Farber and Otteman Funeral Homes and Cremation Center, Sac City, Lake View, Odebolt, and Wall Lake, Iowa I read that on Wade Burlesons blog. In fact, wine, not unfermented grape juice, is viewed as a good gift of the Lord (Ps. Psychiatric evaluation with continuing monitoring to help with alcohol abuse as self-med for suffering from unresolved pain brought on by deep grief. A visitation will be held Thursday, March 11, 2023, from 10:00 am - 12:00 pm with the Celebration of Life to begin immediately following at 12:00 pm Sprowl. All together they give the whole picture of how church leaders are supposed to deal with this type of situation. It is crystal clear. R.C. Edit Search New Search Filters (1) 1-20 of 16,372. Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! The former statement had stronger language. (Sometimes some of the treatment programs can create another set of problems in a person.). Thank-You Love! It would be good if she could be more specific on what this alleged therapy is though. My mother said He couldnt help it. He lost one wife and two beautiful daughters because of it. But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. His alcoholism is one of the least of the familys concerns. Yes, indeed; RC Sproul Snr (and his buddy MacArthur) is one of the most dangerous false teachers around, spewing forth a false gospel; and wasnt he the one who had advocated that Christians (his version of it) should watch filthy movies and so on? Barbara wrote a pretty nasty response to me and H.U.G. I had depression for many years, and I never found sitting in a church service to bring much if any relief for that, nor did I find it help my anxiety or grief. She seems to be slowly but surely getting better. Answer to God. Barbara simply made some kind of reference to Scripture about biblical discipline that you dont agree with. Jeff I hear you. I just dont know any. I think that is the kindest thing I can do for them as they are the weaker one/s in this regard. The older I get and remain in a faith crisis of my own, I definitely think being church-y, and thinking about what God thinks, and caring about what God may think about this or that, adds a whole other level of unnecessary complication on to life. The person will be encouraged to continue the behavior. Disfellowshipping someone who refuses repentence and change should not be a life sentence as it is not so in scripture. Secondarily, what were the terms of his probation? Many resources already exist and are perfectly fine. (let alone applied in practice?). You werent part of a church as a leader. After he became the scapegoat and the Father had imputed to him every sin of every one of his people, the most intense, dense concentration of evil ever experienced on this planet was exhibited. I am extremely angry and jealous that I did not make the money he made. or covetous, [going after what belongs to others] It sounds so evil. I realize that our understanding of addiction today does make it complex, but I am just frustrated with the hypocrisy that makes us look pathetic to non-believers. I realized I was consumed with anxiety and I sought professional help. She said specifically this person and she specified because of his prominence. But to take that info and post it here? Sprouls case and how he should be treated, that I NEVER said. Regardless of if Sproul Jr is a drinker or not, I am having a hard time mustering sympathy for him, if its true hes unfairly ostracizing people from his church, using adultery sites, etc. I sustained a skull fracture (from which I could have died had I not undergone surgery quickly), broken toes, a broken pinky, as well as several fractured vertebrae in my neck. As a matter of fact, I could have ended my life over what my abusive church did to me in excommunicating and shunning me. She just didnt mention it, and she didnt need to. Both yesterday and today you repeatedly made comments to me, saying that I thought things about R.C. Yeah, this is exactly why I left church behind. Thanks for sharing. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking catch you on the next TWW piece. It would be unethical for me to do so. I was looking for that recently. She can run her blog how she likes. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) Hi Julie Anne, Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? This just goes to show what can happen when you have related people working in a ministry like this. And looking at this from a third angle: Even if the person may have been hurt they may still be absolutely correct and objective in what they say. Born Robert Charles Sproul on February 13, 1939 in Pittsburgh, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, United States, RC, as he became best known, was the son of Robert Cecil Sproul and Mayre Ann Yardis. She may not have much say over what he does, especially anything involving his children. RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? @ Velour: I get that we all sinbut this is different. The woman who hit us was found guilty of manslaughter and served time in prison. I dont have a lot of hope that this will happen, however. Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? The key part to what Deborah added was the addict has to want to be helped., Ill admit to being too lazy to scroll back up the page to read Barbs original comments, but I dont recall her asking for anyone to be publicly humiliated (?). Whatever that hurt is, it must be addressed. He had always been so nice before, but that made me feel that I couldnt trust him. I grew up in a verbally abusive family, so I have been here before. She just trotted out a few scripture verses as though that will take care of everything. My specific concern about Barbaras comment, and others like it, is thats NOT how substance abusers are supposed to be handled Velour wrote: He was previously married to Vesta Ann. @ refugee: Double ouch. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. When someone and his behavior is a threat to self and others then that person and his behavior have to be dealt with, as a danger, and strong steps must be taken. Not many would criticize the moderate consumption. 5, that you mention: I actually began to think that maybe I hadnt been bad enough to need a Savior. Please. I am a hardliner. and me on Friday evening: Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. Hes has experienced tragedy and he needs treatment but at the core is still an odious personality. Velour wrote: Maybe she was advocating for it to be done in public (? (Besides if it were my ex-pastor, and he was working with a sponsor in a 12-step program, my name would eventually make it to the 9th Step list of the people he had harmed and had to make amends to!). Is everybody who offends some snowflake doing so out of the own prior trauma leading them to be a hurter of people? or a reviler, [verbal attack, slander, violent language] ++++++++++++++. I even opened up to church people about some of the problems I had but was met with platitudes and put downs, not support. With Barbara because he does need to be put out of the church as a minister (and that needs to be permanent) and as a member (although that could potentially be temporary). Sproul is with the Lord now. Today that little churchis her home church. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) And, it would have been in the interest of RC1 to try to coverup any misbehavior by RC2 that reflected poorly on RC1, especially in the covenant child framework of Covenant Theology. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. RC Sproul Jr was well aware of it but raised no objections to his continued driving. If you posted something negative about Dee or Barb at my blog as you have here, Id remove your comment, too. You and Barbara Roberts have never said, You know, I have no clue how to deal with substance abuse.. And what about all of the other people in the pews who watch that go downwho have problems? Please read and then perhaps you will be able to respond according to what I ACTUALLY said. He said that his wife Rachelle said it. For me these people are PURE EVIL!! It had such a devastating impact on my husband that he doesn't drink alcohol. That is a whole different level of bad behavior. That intervention meeting was more than a decade ago, and I know theories can change over time.) Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. Try Highborn Heir to the Iron Throne of House Sproul.. She needed that love. You have my prayers. Its non stop catering to their lifestyle. Quoting or summarizing her words is fine, but to point blank say she is against treatment for alcoholics is wrong when she did not say that. We also have personal experience with RC Jr. Family and friends are welcome to leave their condolences on this memorial page and share them with the family. Velour wrote: I would agree that Sproul shouldnt be disqualified due to his ADULT sons issues. She may not have much say over what he does, especially anything involving his children. Its hard to play the empathy card with this clown. i think of my agnostic relatives. [1]. But to just say that someone with a drinking/substance abuse problem in the church should be publicly humiliated is NOT how substance abuse is supposed to be handled or treated. Im not sure about that. :0| Since many of his abuses of people appear to be in front of the entire church, than at some point in his recovery besides making individual amends he should be making public amends, with the help of a sponsor guiding him in the process. Being a parent of an alcoholic or drug abuser is scary. Okrapod, I thought, worked in radiology or something along those lines. Wow! I found that quote on this site: Not saying you are wrong JY, but if you read the entire chapter, including the beginning of chapter six, Paul references the assembly as well, and turning over to Satan. He has a lot of wreckage to clean up and much damage to many peoples lives. You both have different and appropriate responses, so why you are putting her down is beyond me. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. So I was only saying what the Bible says. From that day forward, he chose not to drink. Haha. im very sorry you had to go through that. Remember Ashley Madison? He sounds like a great big jerk and a control freak. As for Presbyterian polity, RC1 is ordained in the PCA, but the last I heard, he was the pastor of an *independent* Presbyterian church. Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. Sproul 2s drinking (and whatever other problems that he has) and an intervention by family and friends with a trained professional. No, I cant say that I have ever seen NeoCalvinists want to reason together. Barbara Roberts made a nasty comment to H.U.G. 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